President, CAC Nigeria and Overseas, Pastor S.O. Oladele
In this interview
with the President of CHRIST APOSTOLIC CHURCH, NIGERIA AND OVERSEAS, PASTOR
SAMUEL OLUSEGUN OLADELE, he fielded questions with CHRIST APOSTOLIC Magazine
team of PASTOR ADE ALAWODE, EDITOR, PASTOR ABIODUN AJAO and ISRAEL AFOLAYAN,
the President speaks on the theme chosen for this year’s conferences in the
Church. He also spoke about the state of the nation. Excerpts:
Sir, the theme of all our conferences this year is, ‘Spiritual Power
and Gifts for the body of Christ’. Are we focusing on this because we observed
that some spirits, other than the Holy Spirit is controlling the Church?
We cannot but talk about the Holy Spirit because the Church,
(I mean the Church universal) was birthed through the Holy Spirit. The Holy
Spirit has always been the power behind the Church of Jesus Christ. In Church
history, there was a period known as the Dark Age when it was not the Bible, but
the priests, that were controlling the Church. Church members just had to
depend on what the priests told them. There was no revelation, no light of the
Gospel and the Holy Spirit was just pushed aside. However, we thank God who in
His sovereignty does intervene, from time to time, in the matters of the Church.
In the case of Christ Apostolic Church, we know that the days were dark before the
1930 revival. It was that evil (and) lethargic condition of the Church that
spurred our forebears to seek the face of God, which they did for ten good
years. As they prayed from 1918 to 1928,
they were hungry for Holy Spirit revival because they realized that without the
Holy Spirit the Church cannot move forward. God did answer their prayers and in
1930 the Revival broke out in Oke Ooye Ilesa. We are not unmindful of the fact
that Satan and his cohorts will trouble the Church by bringing up some things
that are not of God – such as demonic and carnal manifestations but the Holy
Spirit of God, who is in charge of the Church will not allow the activities of demons
and other spirits to thrive. Remember, it was like that in the days of Peter
and Paul etc. who had to confront some magicians who called themselves the
power of God in those days. It is not strange to see some spirits that would
want to trouble the Church but with the Holy Spirit in charge, those other
spirits must bow.
But do you think that the Church can still witness a visitation of the
Holy Spirit as was the case in 1930?
We don’t have the absence of the Holy Spirit, He is always
with us. However, what we need is to let Him take His place (manifest) among
us. The Apostles waited for ten days until they were endued by the Holy Spirit.
The waiting was necessary then because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon
them but today we do not have to wait because the Holy Spirit, having descended
upon the Church on the day of Pentecost, has been here with us but we need to acknowledge
His presence and activities in the Church. All what we are seeing today are not
just the works of men, the Holy Spirit has always been in charge of the Church.
However, revival is not supposed to be seasonal occurrence but should be the
norm in the Church. That is what we hope for. We know that we are due for
revival and when revival breaks out you will see some other wonderful things
happening. It is not that there is a total absence of the Holy Spirit in the
Church. You see that more Churches are being planted, miracles are taking
place, prayers are being answered, testimonies abound everywhere and all of
that. Nonetheless, they are just like dew drops compared to what God has in
stock for us. There is always more of God and more from God. We wish to see
more activities of the Holy Spirit and more of His operations among us. You
know that Jesus said I am not going to leave you as orphans. If the Holy Spirit
is not with us then we shall be like orphans because there will be no guide, no
captain, so, there will be nothing to lead us; nothing to guide us. He has
always been with us, but we want more. There is always something more that God
can do.
You mentioned the fact that the Holy Spirit has always been with us,
but revival is something that has to be the norm. The problem today is that
there are so many revivalists, many of them are not operating at the level of
the Holy Spirit.
I don’t know of any in Christ Apostolic Church.
I am not talking of Christ Apostolic Church Sir. I am talking generally
about the Christendom.
In Christ Apostolic Church, if it is reported to us that
some people are using diabolical means to work for the Lord, we will have to
deal with them. You know, there is no where you go that you will not find those
who would want to imitate the power of the Holy Spirit. It was like that in the
days of the Apostles. The Bible tells us of the seven sons of Sceva who tried to
imitate Paul. Their successors have always been with us but when the Holy
Spirit is active in the Church, those other spirits will have no place, they
will be exposed.
In an interview with you sometimes ago on the ministry of the Holy
Spirit, you said that the Holy Spirit given to our Lord, Jesus Christ was
without measure but the Holy Spirit given to the Apostles and their
descendants, including us, is measured. Yet Jesus Christ promised that the
works that He did, we will do more even with our limited Holy Spirit. Kindly
throw more light on this sir.
The ‘Greater works’ will not be in terms of quality, but in
terms of size. When our Lord Jesus Christ was here physically, He is always
here with us anyway because He is omnipresent, but when He was here physically
His ministry was confined only to the land of Israel. He did not travel to any
other country, except when, as a child, He was taken to Egypt for safety from
Herod’s plot. There is this poem written about Him titled: “One Solitary Life”.
The poem claimed that He never travelled more than 200 miles from the place of
His birth. So, it was kind of a limited sphere for His ministry. When He said,
‘Greater works shall ye do’, remember that He was the one that told His
disciples, “tarry in Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit comes upon you, then you
shall be my witness in Jerusalem, in Judea and Samaria and the uttermost part
of the world.” He did not go to the uttermost part of the world when He was
here physically. So, in terms of volume and reach we are doing greater works but
in terms of quality there is no work that we do that can compare to His.
Your trips to Europe, America and Canada were well reported online. Compared
to the Church at home (I mean CAC this time) how do you rate the fervency of
our brethren abroad?
We thank God for Christ Apostolic Church and for our
brethren in the diaspora. We live in the days of competition, whether we like
it or not. Although there should be no room for competition in the ministry but
completion, the fact remains incontrovertible. I have always said this about
King Sunny Ade’s song that we have
adapted, ‘CAC yi ti gbogbo wa ni, ko ma
gbodo baje; Tori ko si bomiran ti a le lo, ajo ko da bi ile; Ejeka so ‘wo po ka
fimo sokan, gbe kemi gbe” (Translated: This CAC is for us all, it must not
be destroyed; for there is no other place we can go… let us jointly lift it).
That aspect of the song which says, ‘we have no other place to go’ cannot be
true as there are many other places that we can go. For instance, in the last forty
years or more, I have had several invitations to join some other Christian
ministries, with promises of very attractive largesse, and sometimes under
intense pressure but I declined the various offers because the Lord has called
me to stay in Christ Apostolic Church. Similar pressures may have be mounted on
some of our brethren by other ministries and denominations but to have them over
there in Europe, the United States and Canada maintaining their membership of
Christ Apostolic Church and they are not ashamed of Christ Apostolic Church is
highly commendable. That is why, anytime I travel and I see them, I commend
them for staying within the fold of Christ Apostolic Church. The fervency is
there, the zeal is there and the identity they don’t want to lose at all. We
thank God for what He is doing among our brethren in those places.
Talking of being loyal to a denomination, these days, we find that
people just take exit from known denomination in which they first started as
they wanted to be independent. I want you to comment sir, what are the
disadvantages of separating oneself from a well-known denomination like Christ
Apostolic Church in order to go solo?
Well, when it comes to ministry, there are two basic
questions that must be answered. We will take our cue from Apostle Paul. When he
met the Lord on the way to Damascus he asked two questions of the Lord. Number
one question was, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ and the second one was, ‘What would you
have me to do?’ Those two questions are basic in the life of any minister of
God. You must know the Lord personally. Throughout his life and ministry one of
Paul’s stirring desires was to know the Lord and have a personal relationship
with Him. In his epistle to the Philippian believers he declared, ‘that I may
know him…’ Philippians 3:10. He eventually knew the Lord through many things
including miracles, wonders, conversion of souls and even suffering yet that
desire remained, to know Him more and more. Same should be the desire of every believer,
nay minister, to know the Lord personally. Number two question, ‘what would you
have me to do?’ One must realize the fact that there will be interests that
will beckon to us, ‘come and do this, come here, go there’. Many invitations
will come our way, but of all these invitations, pressures, and inducements we
must ask, ‘what would the Lord want me to do?’ Every Christian minister should
be able to know what exactly the Lord wants him to do and where He wants him or
her to be. We cannot all be in the same denomination or ministry. We thank God
for how He operates. Sometimes, a Church like ours could just serve as a
training ground, a place of preparation for some people before they go out. Some
may go solo, if that is the will of God for them. If there is a kind of express
divine revelation from the Lord to leave a big denomination like ours to go
solo then so be it. We thank God that CAC has produced many big names in the
ministry today such as Pastor Matthew Ashimolowo, Dr. D.K. Olukoya, Pastor Amos
Fenwa, Prophet Wole Oladiyun and many others like that who still maintain a
very strong relationship with us. Infact, hardly would you will you see a
minister who is doing great exploits for the Lord today, in Nigeria and
overseas, that will not, in one way or the other, be connected to CAC. So, once
you know that this is the express will of God for you, then go but don’t go in
annoyance, don’t go by rebellion, don’t go by fighting, don’t go by creating
problem for the denomination from which you are exiting. It’s good to do it in
a way that will give God the glory.
What can we say of those who are leaving just because they don’t want
anybody to control them?
Well, that’s up to them. However, there is no way such
people would not regret their taking some measure. The Bible says that we
should honour one another. We should do so in the spirit of God. You have to submit
to one another in fear of God. That is what we saw in the lives of our
forebears each of whom would have become a big ministry or denomination if they
went their separate ways but decided to stay together and submit to one another
in the fear of the Lord. For instance, Apostle Joseph Ayo Babalola was such a
greatly endowed man of God yet he submitted himself to the authority and
leadership of the Church. Whatever he was asked to do he did; he would always
return after every ministerial assignment to give report to the Authority. He
was such a meek man that he would not lift his face to speak to the leaders.
However, if you want to leave the Church because you do not want discipline or you
just do not want to be under anybody you still may successful but there will be
something to regret later. People tend to take undue advantage of our magnanimity
in CAC, they use our name in starting their ministry, go on air in our name etc.
and yet do not want to be under authority. You dare not do that any other
denomination. In the book of Isaiah chapter 4:5, the Bible says, “…over all the
glory there must be a covering”. If you go and there is no covering on your
head that is up to you but there is always something to regret about. Even
those who left by the will and express permission of God, they still have their
link with the Church. I will not mention names but I know those who left and it
is well known that that is the will of God for them yet they still defer to
some fathers of the Church as their fathers. If people like that still maintain
their links with the Church, what do you think is going to happen to those who
left in annoyance or out of rebellion?
The laissez faire attitude of the Church as regards people who are
springing up giving their churches the name Christ Apostolic Church, yet
without having any link or liaison with the authorities of the Church, isn’t it
high time we took action to rein in those people?
That is one of the fallouts of the crisis that has been our
lot for the past 34 years. We pray for total reconciliation and unity of the
Church; once that happens then those who like to take advantage of us will have
no hiding place. For sometimes, when you see someone setting up a Church bearing
the name “Christ Apostolic Church” and you challenge him or her knowing that it
is without due authorization then s/he would tell you that, ‘our own church does not belong to you, we are
under the leadership of “the other side”. So what do you do? That is why we are
praying that the Lord in His sovereignty will intervene bring the Church to
unity so that there will be no hiding place for such people who take advantage
of our benevolence and liberality.
The spread of the gospel was originally from Europe to Africa. But
these days, because of liberalism and concession of human rights of all kinds,
the European society is becoming too secular and our people are the ones taking
the gospel to Europe now. What impact are we making especially in Europe and
America?
If you study Church history, you will observe that the
Church started in Jerusalem. Jerusalem used to be the very centre of
Christianity but later it moved to Antioch of Pisidia. It was in Antioch of
Pisidia that the prophecy came that Paul and Barnabas should be separated for
the work unto which the Lord had called them. Acts 13:1-2. So, the Church at
Antioch of Pisidia was a ‘Sending Church. They sent out missionaries. So, from
Jerusalem to Antioch, then to Europe and other parts of the world that was how
the centre of the Church moved. God had a programme for every continent of the
world to experience this dynamism by bringing the centre to a particular
country or continent and through which that continent will be blessed. So, I
think it is turn of the continent of Africa to serve as centre of the gospel.
That’s why today the gospel is being taken to those who once brought it to us. IF
you go to Europe today, on Sundays you will see people going to the beaches and
other places of sports and entertainment rather than being in the Church.
Infact, Church means nothing to them. At the same time, you will see Africans,
nay Nigerians going to Church and they are making impact the European societies.
They work in the country, pray for the country, evangelize and do all sorts of
Christian works. This is in addition to performing their civic responsibility
creditably well too. I remember that some years ago the then British Prime
Minister, Mr. David Cameron, went to see Baba Adeboye when he visited London,
and he prayed for him. There are indeed many ministries in Europe, Pastored by
Nigerians, that are doing great exploits for the Lord. The Government of those
countries have come to acknowledge this fact. I know of a Church in Brixton that
serves as a rehabilitation place; when you go to that church you will see people
who were once drug addicts, prostitutes and criminals now rehabilitated and
serving as members of the Church. The Government gives them support because of
the role that Church is playing by helping to keep the street safe through its
evangelistic ministry to people. The impact is there for everyone to see that
this is not a child’s play.This is the time that God has set apart for Africa
to impact the world with the gospel.
In recent times some of the European leaders and politicians, having
noted the way some other people from other cultures and religion are taking
over their society are declaring that their society is a Christian society.
Don’t you think Christians in Africa should do more to return these people to
the Christian principles that established their society?
I don’t think there is any country in the world today that
can be called a Christian country. Yes, they may be tolerant of other faiths,
they may be liberal and make laws that allow you to practice your religion but
there is no country in the world that could be called a Christian country by
practise. But then, some people are waking up now in Europe because it is
apparent that adherents of some other religions are taking over their society.
Today there are talks about the Islamic agenda but I ask ‘What exactly is the
Christian Agenda?’. We should be up and doing as regards the Great Commission because
Islam is no child’s play. The muslims will take the time, spend the money, and give
whatever it takes to actualize the Islamic Agenda. Their goal is to take over
all church buildings that had been put in place several years before Islam was
born. Turkey used to be a predominantly Christian society. Infact, the seven
Churches mentioned in the book of revelation were located in Asia Minor, now in
modern Turkey but it is now a Muslim country. The Hagia Sophia in Turkey which
once used to be the largest cathedral in the world has now been converted to a
mosque. European countries have a lot to learn from this and wake up. It should
serve as a clarion call to all of us here too in Africa. We have to wake up
from our slumber and see to it that the heritage we have is not taken away from
us.
Back home Sir, are you satisfied with the impact that the policies of
your administration is making on the Church?
Yes, of course. Although nobody can do it all yet we have to
thank God. It has not been easy especially when you want to carry on with
reforms you have to step on toes. Some people may not be happy but we have to
thank God that He is with us. Anytime I pray to the Lord I thank Him for how
far He has helped us. Generally, people are averse to change. Hence, it is not
easy when you want to bring in new things but change is the only constant
things in the world. I am very happy that the Lord is working through us and
with us. Nonetheless, we still expect more to be done before we take our bow.
Which are of your set goals would you like to improve upon Sir?
We are very much concerned about the training. If you go
through some of our reports, a little over 2000 field officers have been
trained so far since we assumed office, including those of us in the
secretariat and other institutions of the Church. I want this to be improved
upon. If we have about twelve thousand Pastors that are ordained ministers and
we have trained less than 3000 then we wonder how it is going to be in the next
few years that we have before us. Remember it is said, ‘if you don’t train
them, you don’t blame them’. We have a lot of things to do in that area.
Another is the reconciliation of the Church. We are working on that too. We are
trying that which is possible but God does His own thing at His own time.
I will ask a question on the issue of reconciliation because you
mentioned it. I know that some matters are pending in the law courts. Has there
been contacts to renew the negotiation that was stalled?
Yes, we have been holding informal meetings for sometimes
now. For instance, we met in June (The President went to his desk to bring out
a “to-do” list for the day and showed this reporter. One of the items on that
list was “prepare for meeting with Supreme”). We shall be meeting here by
next week, God willing. I called Pastor Henry Ojo on phone a few days ago. We
tried to meet this week but because of some other assignments which we both had
it was agreed that we meet by next week. We trust God that something positive
will come out of it all.
Early this year, you explained why the Church will not be holding
regular ordination exercise as it used to be. It was your view that ordination
of pastors should be on needs based on need. But there seems to be a change of
that decision with the proposed ordination of the returnees. What informed that
change?
The returnees are those that are not ministers of Christ
Apostolic Church, but who have been convinced by the Lord that they should
return their churches to the Christ Apostolic Church. This was extended to
those that were ordained by Supreme Council who had come to this side. As part
of our Human Capital Development
program we intend to give them a short training before re-ordain them. The
training will come at the end of the Pastors’ Conference and they will be
ordained in December, God willing. In the nearest future, we shall ordain some other
ministers on the field, who have had some years of experience after they
graduated from the Seminary. By the grace of God, ordination shall still be on
‘needs basis’ but it is not going to be ‘business as usual’. That is why
certain criteria are to be met first during screening of such candidates before
they are pre-qualified for the ordination training. We need to be careful in order
not to a mess of the whole thing.
Let’s come to state of the nation. Recently, there was “End Bad Governance”
protest for ten days. Kindly assess this government, is it on the right track?
Well, it’s difficult to say because one is not privy to what
is going on inside the cabinet and their meetings but what I know is that
Nigeria is such a complex country to rule. It does not matter who is in charge,
if the foundation is faulty then whoever rules will have some difficulty. For
some years now, there has been advocacy for restructuring of the country. There
won’t be rest until we do that. If for example we go back to regional
government which was in existence before the advent of military rule in Nigeria
then things will begin to take proper shape. Let every region control its
resources. For those who are waving the flag of Russia, which is a kind of
subtle invitation for military intervention, I am not sure they understand what
exactly they are asking for. The question we should ask ourselves is, ‘why are
we where we are today; and what can we do to get out of this quagmire?’ The
military governments led us into all of these. Why, for instance, would you
create more states in the North than in the South? Why would members of the
House of Representative be more from the North than the South? The military
gave us a constitution that was not practicable. Why do we have some items on exclusive
legislative list which should ordinarily not be there? There are several areas of
governance which are obviously skewed and promote inequality in our nation
which the military gave us. Then what good will, a call for military
intervention, do for us? However, if we go back to what used to obtain in the
past and let every region develop at its own pace then things will work. We are
building so much on these faulty foundation that need to be pulled down and restructured
then power will not be concentrated at the centre. So, if only we are willing
to do that, whoever leads will have no problem at all. Somebody said recently
that if you take Lionel Merci the footballer and you ask him to face a second
division team all alone, as good as he is, he cannot win such a football match
why because it is a mis-match. So if you put the best of hands in charge of
this country, with all the enormous, formidable, wicked and unrighteous people
around there will not be a good outcome. What I know is that for this country
to work, we must all decide to be a good people first who wants the best for
our country then remove the faulty foundation on which this shaky structure is
built and do things right. If we do it right then we shall get it right.
There is this
conspiracy theory that enemies who are opposed to the regional governance
initiative being made by the government of President Tinubu through the Bill of
Regional governance which has gone through the second reading in the National Assembly
are the ones behind the protests.
May be, may be not, I don’t know. What I know is that bad
governance has been with us for a long time. Why didn’t people protest then?
Especially in those parts of the country whose sons have been in Government for
many years but where the lives of their people had almost been destroyed? Why
is now they are suddenly realizing that there is bad governance and they want
to protest? It is really amusing because there has been bad governance for
years, especially in those parts of the country. People were killed, maimed, kidnapped
and generally violated for many years in the past yet nobody complained over
there simply because their kin was in power. Even when there was protest in
this part of the country, nobody protested there. Hence, you cannot rule out
politics.
What is your message
to Christ Apostolics at these challenging times when cost of living is so high.
We are all Nigerians, we have to continue to look up to God
and pray unto Him because He knows how to take care of His own. The message is
not to CAC members alone but all Christians. God said, “Look unto me all the
nations”. He knows how to take care of His own. Though things shouldn’t be like
this anyway, if the right thing had been done in the past. But God will see us
through. He said through it all, we are more than conqueror. It’s not easy but
we shall come through it, in Jesus’Name.
In terms of care for
the less privileged, what should the Christ Apostolic Church be doing?
That’s one of the duties of the Church. Let those who have,
take care of those who do not. One of our Hymns in Christ Apostolic Church
says: “behold I go, my poor are with you, take care of them as you may as
occasion may warrant”. In the Epistle of James, which is the earliest epistle ever
written before other epistles like Romans, Philippians etc. It is about
practical Christianity and teaches how to use our tongue, how to relate to
others, how to take care of the poor, the widows, strangers and the needy etc.
When He was here physically, our Lord Jesus Christ went about doing good. The
Bible says you go and do likewise. It is our duty to take care of those who are
weak, who are poor, who are down-trodden and less privileged. Christ Apostolic
Church as an organization is trying its best in this regard as we have
provisions for the poor and needy, widowed and so on. We have had to give to
communities that were attacked by armed bandits and reconstructed places of
residences and worship where necessary. However, we cannot do this alone so we
appeal to all our members to do the best they can to help their neighbours. God
bless you.